How bad is RTS2 wanted or needed?

Hey Sean. I have been working the past few days on my program that I was developing last year. I have mentioned it to you before, very similar to RTS but not a direct ripoff. I would be more than happy to work with you if you have any interest in that. Not looking for any money from it.

Some of my ideas that I'm working on that were different from RTS:

Allow random generation of some trains. For example a train that runs maybe a couple times a week as an "as needed" train, you could set to generate randomly and not always on the same day.

Marking some engines for their 30-60-90 service so as to get better use of the engine shops in the territories.

Marking some cars for service to utilize some of the RIP tracks.

Being able to track what cars are actually on the territory from the time they get generated to the time they leave on the outbound train, and using that to information to not bring in an excessive number of cars.

Possibly making it a web app that can also incorporate the registry right into it.

Ability to spawn local trains with smaller power to simulate locals that come from off territory such as the Yulee-Moncrief turn, or the Cadiz interchange.

Simple user interface to allow easy changes to the configuration. (Add, change, or delete industries and trains for example.)


I currently have spawn points for all available routes. I even got the Bakersfield spawn that you had problems with in RTS to work. I also have a program that generates the spawn point data automatically (while not perfect, sometimes nails it first try, sometimes you have to run it a couple times and compare the data to see whats missing, but much easier than manual data entry, I'm sure you know).

I can manipulate hard data like spawn points and train files all day long. Where I'm really struggling is the logistical side of it. Generating waybills, distributing them over the source trains, etc. Thats where RTS really shined. As crazy as it may sound, I'm working on a Southeast world as I'm developing the program (need a world to test it of course and CSX is the easiest to get information for as far as train symbols), but I think it would be better to go back to manual tagging rather than let the Run8 industries do it. Sure you can let them run their time to keep track of when its ready, but just have it tag as ready or empty. Then the program would generate a tag list for each local so they can be re-tagged when they are picked up. I don't trust Run8 to give me the distribution I want if I have say 3 or 4 tags coming out of an industry.

I had actually completed a fully functional version and given it to Mike. I don't know that he ever really tested it because I didn't ship it with a full slate of industries or trains, he would have to do all the data entry to get it up and running with that information, and I got the feeling that he was just too busy to get to it, which I understand with a full time job and running a server. It obviously didn't have all the features listed above, and it didn't generate outbound tags because at the time I was content to let Run8 handle the tagging at the industries.

I know you told me when I mentioned it before you didn't have any interest in testing it, but if you change your mind I'd be happy to give it to you to play around with.

Really glad to see your renewed interest in Run8, as well as all the new people on the server. It really is a lot of fun when there are a bunch of people on the server for sessions. It makes dispatching way more interesting if you have a handful of locals out running around at the same time, not to mention the challenge of getting Amtrak through on time.

I was definitely a user of RTS software and considered RTS2, and I also did try an initial version of the software Clint created as well. All of this traffic planning takes a lot of attention to details which translates into a huge time investment. I have been giving Run 8's internal AI generation using the tagged for local industries another try, as I'm spawning all trains on demand during DS sessions right now.

Using the filters to assign incoming manifests from outside the region to the appropriate locals can create a "good enough" representation of traffic. It will take time for me to get all of the traffic levels working right, but I'm going to keep trying this path for now.

Thanks,
Mike

Clint, those are valid questions but unfortunately you will not get an answer until V3 is released. The developers will never provide a specific release date other than the standard "It will be released when it is ready". As far as if they will encrypt the remaining XML files, that is something we will just have to wait and see.

-Ski

Yep join the club.  V3's changes was another reason why I avoided this when I reconsidered.  I used to just provide a beta with updates, so perhaps it's something the developers will like and might help you out with it   Just don't burn bridges like I do, and to be honest that burning may impact the future availability of the XML's.

Well I know you've had a good rep with the Run8 crew Mike, and that's good.  But at the same time LA is indeed a great expansion, I talk about it all the time when I run on your server even tonight for example.  The fact remains that even when you try and not be negative, my experience in the past is trying to help others get around shortcomings (an explosion issue 5 years ago) has cost me beta team (2 times).  I also know there is favorites and usually those that have never been critical even when being honest with their community, will not get the assistance or support regardless of water under the bridge.

I was on a forum called Run8Depot where having any critical view of Run8 was not allowed.  It wasn't long after that I told them get rid of my membership.  At least one other person I know of in this thread has had little response by the team on questions just like myself.  We all continue to buy their products and expansions because we love Run8.  9 times out of 10 I'm praising Run8 for every 1 time I'm critical.  My posts on other forums speak for themselves as does my YouTube videos.  In fact the post that started this thread speaks for itself in regard to my admiration of Run8.

I'm not here to bash Run8 or anyone.  I'm also not here to promote my server, projects, etc.  I'm here to run and participate in this community and sessions because I like what you've done.  Quite frankly yes I was tired of Run8's little quirks that prevented me in doing what I wanted to do elsewhere.

So as long as your ok with that, I'll continue to freely comment and be critical when warranted.  RTS2 is not going to be developed as Clint has reminded me that he has the keys now.  I'm just trying to give him some friendly advice in a non-hostile community.

Thanks

Sean 

 

Hello.

I read all the msgs you posted and wanted to give my point of view. A point of view of someone that comes from other type of simulation. Flight simulation and also game industry.
I am a professional (sorry for my english) that has worked in several games before entering the simulator development. The game most known was Crysis 2 from Crytek using their well known CryEngine. After that I became developer for 8 years in Xplane, inside the main developer team (Laminar Research), and meanwhile, developming my own planes. This is my youtube webpage if you want to checkout my work: www.youtube.com/channel/UCozowg6xXJuz1FO3D42T2zg

Ok, I wanted to introduce myself, because I wanted to give my vision of the little I saw in Run8 simulator.
For me Run8 simulator is like a flightsim (Xplane, FSX or P3D) It is a openbox simulator, where we have the best Physics (still things to be improved) as XPlane has, with an "open" world to do the things you want to do, and a robust multiplayer that allows 7/24. That is great.
XPlane also had this but it was never success with the competition that was (and is) FSX/P3D. The reason was that even FSX/P3D has worst physics than XPlane, it has the best addons developed by third party. Even FSX was a dead product as it was abandoned by Microsoft, it still continues to be played by lot of people. And the reason is because the addons the people around it, makes for it.
So with those addons FSX/P3D is perfect, and XPlane understood that, and also now that addons are comming, is becoming little by little the first candidate to be among the flight sims.

What I see in Run8? Hardcore fans of real rail world, that 98% active ones are from USA, because Run8 is a simulation of rail system in USA only. And also I see that the developers don't want to release or give easy oportunities to external developers to produce their own mods (free or payware), maybe because (I heard this from one user) they believe that if people makes their own addons, then they won't have the control and will "dirt" their product, becoming a bad sim (I also saw that comment in a forum community). I believe that is a mistake for the good future of the sim.
It has been 6 years (??) of continuosly development of run8 by their own, and it seems that they can live the way they chose to do thing. Mods would bring bad mods (that we can choose to install or not) and great mods. I loved what I saw in just 1 week of Run8, that I decided I wanted to make a loco for it, so I asked the developers, that I had some good and quick support emails with, to let me see if I could have the SDK, as Hi-Rail have it, so I could learn about how to develop in Run8 (gave them my references and videos). No reply still from them.

If there is no reply, that means that they don't want to allow these type of mods come. I feel they are wrong, if that is true, but we cannot do anything, and other railsim (maybe) will rise from zero to fill that gap that they leave. If they change their mind, then we (the community) would be able to modify the sim. Because, our mods comes from our passion to a sim. But we want to have some money, because the huge time we put in developing a mod (for me takes 2 years to develop a plane) is time you are not working to have money to eat and pay bills.

Soooo.. the only thing that is left in Run8 is go BEHIND the Devs. It is not a problem to release a mod that would work for Run8 v2 when v3 would be out. But the mod has to be great addiction to users, so people would continue using V2 version instead of V3. That would make the devs, see that people are choosing the v2 version because that specific mod and they would, maybe, change their mind, and allow support to developers to work in v3 mods.
BUT, you have to ask if the mod you have in mind is wanted or needed (as Sean does here). That is fine. But usually people would reply "yes sure". It is easy to reply that.

Everybody has a vision, and we all believe that ours is the real one or close to the real one. And that is not true. The real vision is from the users. From the community that use that specific Sim. And even that is not true, because even all the users like something, that doesn't mean it is right, if there is that sim is not supported by a good number of active users. 
Right now how many users do we have online frequently? 20? 30? (I think the max I saw was 12) Flightsim are very rare and low comunity compared with other games, but maybe we have 10.000 people flying online every week. And I, as developer discovered that the thing that makes people continue flying are not new planes someone release, or new maps. What it makes to continue flying is something to do.

In Run8 when you go online what you can do? The real operations. Ok. For those hardcore rail US fans that is great. See the right train with the proper destinations, proper days, proper industries. But for a normal user like me, or other rail fans in Europe, asia, etc... it is not. It is good, but not important.
From what I have seen, Depot+ and this SRS server gives people specific things to do (works). That is fine, and keep things moving.... for a while. In real live, you have to do works because you do real transportation of goods where they have to go, and companies earns money. In simulation, it doesn't happend anything if you don't deliver a train.  BUT what if the community would have a goal to achieve. In flightsims we have that type of addons (free and payware) and they are Economics addons. They DO NOT simulate real companies. They simulate invented ones, that makes flights to transport people and goods, and receive income to buy, repare, keep the economy up and not break the company.

The Sim, becomes a game. An strategic game. A word (game) that is hated by lots of simmers, because they think a game is not serious and their sim, it is. And I believe that way of thinging is wrong, because sims and games has one thing in common, (when you are not a professional and look for increase your hablities for real live) they ENTERTAINT you.
Imagine an addon that gives you the option to spawn trains in a living world. There are 3 companies (BNSF, UP and CSX) in the same world. Your friends takes those companies and have to make them grow, if you are starting from zero; or maintain them if stars from a medium point. With your decisions, you can buy new locos, repair the old ones, make them break, receive lawsuit from your clients, because you didn't deliver their things on time, hire real people (or AI) to drive your trains, etc....  Anything in your imagination.

That type of programs are really far away from Run8. I know. But in Flightsims we do have them. Free programs as FSEconomy, makes the comnunity fly around networks doing jobs and having money to buy new planes, rent new bases, etc... Or payware, as Airhauler2 or future SimAir.... And then we have programs to simulate the environment in flights, as FSCaptain or FSPassengers, that introduces to failures in planes, heartattacks on passengers, flying over war zones, and real procedures in flight.
With those programs you have a WHY I CONTINUE FLYING, and it not becomes " I fly from A to B, and next day C to D somedays".
Those type of programs would bring more people to Run8. Something that it wouldn't be liked by some users, as they would think that those new guys would dirt the sim (you can password your servers). But for sure would also bring new interesting people, that would make the sim grow.. so devs would have more money to release those things that the hardcore wants.

I am not a programmer guy. I know to program my things, but not big ones. I am a 3D, and game designer guy... and when I saw run8 I imagined: "what if I make a program to unify run8 + EuroTruck Sim (American Truck also) + flight sims; that give people the option to deliver cargos, all based in an economy system? Of course is just a dream... but I don't see imposible to make an economy addon for Run8 by someone.
that is what is desperatelly needed. In my simple opinion. But first it needs desperately a dispatcher that would make the AI go to their real destinations (and us). Something like TSCAD, but developed by the Run8 Devs, because that is a backbone of the sim, and cannot depend on someone that maybe he cannot give support in future)

Thanks.

About your imposibility of making graphics. That is not a problem at all to make a success game/sim. You can checkout Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations simulator. It is awful in graphics. Just photos and a world map that is not 3D acelerated.. I compare it as an ASCII game. But it works! and it is amazing because the database inside.. and I have been playing lots of hours with it (and sells really well!!)
So Graphics are important but to a point.
About earn money with production of a game-addon or whatever. I don't know if I understood correctly (my english) but it seems that you are not having good moments earning money. Not bad also, but not confortable. So, I don't recomend do a game-addon. You know it well it takes too much energy and time to do something, that you are not going to receive any money all the time you develop it, and at the end, if you finish it, don't know if you are going to receive the better of the gratitudes of public: money. Because it is easy to say "Thank you" when it is free, but it is amaizing when you receive the "thank you" after he has pay a fee for your product.

To make a program, you know well, you need to be relax, concentrated, with lot of energy, and the money saved to spend while you are not working in other usual jobs. In my case I was lucky, because i was fired of a game company, put them a lawsuit, because I thought it was not right, and won it, receiving money that allowed me to develop for 1 year. I could concentrate on my work, release it, and I was lucky enough to be recompensate with the support of fans, giving more money to make the next one.. and so on for 9 years already. So lucky.
But also you not only need that a 65% of the fans of the Run8 (or other program) buys your addon to survive. You need that the 65% are enough to survive.. and I feel that Run8 is not a big community.
So big houses starts from good foundations. An that is to make something small that likes the people most. Even if it is free. And of course run away from drama always! All we have a mouth to criticize, but not all has the brain and hands to build things from zero, and those ones has to be respected by the real supporters of a Sim, game, or whatever.

Thanks.

Good luck!