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Post by mikerice on Sept 9, 2019 13:43:25 GMT -6
I'd like to start out by saying I appreciate that folks are interested, and even better you have been providing feedback during the several weeks of downtime. Basic Operating Preferences: - Run 8 Southwest Region - all BNSF, UP and SJVR Subdivisions and branch lines. Amtrak trains as well.
- Continuous or Frozen Clock: Clock needs to run continuously and should be aligned with whatever the current Pacific Time is. (starting/stopping clock requires server owner)
- Dispatching in Oligarchy mode. Password required.
- Communications: Voice (using Discord), or in game Text on the appropriate radio channels.
- Prototypical traffic levels based on most current source of information available. Manually spawn traffic based on schedule, still not happy with "random" spawning.
- Mainline, Yard, Local, Industry Switching all available at whatever level we can support.
Here are some objectives I have been thinking of: - Need to be able to have an operating session without the server owner (me) available every time
- Need to have all trains to be spawned available in a shared folder, so anyone could spawn if filling the role of traffic manager
- Dispatchers must be experienced and use the appropriate tools (External Dispatcher and F3 screen for LA Area and Bakersfield Sub)
- With the continuous clock we need to have a "clock" that only runs when we have dispatcher sessions, and this is the clock that aligns with the schedule
Yards and Locals: - Non-DS required industry work is more flexible that DS required locals. Eliminate majority of DS required locals.
- Classification Yards: Can we support both WC and BAR? Can we support either? BAR is my preference, but both originate and terminate a lot of trains.
- Like the concept of assigning a yard track at Prophrey to process the cars for the local automatically. Would be interested in other places for this too.
Thanks all I have time for right now.
Please feel free to comment, make recommendations, etc.
Thank you,
Mike
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Post by survivorsean on Sept 9, 2019 16:27:32 GMT -6
Hi Mike:
Appreciate the outline. Sounds rather promising. I also would put preference to BAR of WC. In fact I'd push it just a bit further and try to have as much UP optional switching. There are several locations that can be used for both BNSF & UP as I'm going through the maps right now. Unfortunately I can't speak for West Seligman or BNSF Bakersfield as I don't own those and have never downloaded the maps. But I'm going to go run8depot map by map with my recommendations. The following are all areas that could incorporate an 18 hour countdown. The reason why I've used 18 in the SE for example is it gives people the chance who want to switch a place to pick up a train, but also doesn't go the full 24 so that the cars then become available (turned) before the schedule comes up again.
MOJAVE SUB
-SJVR
--UP BK Track 550, 555, and/or 556 is prime real estate for SJVR NB
--If you want to go further into the area you could use the 5500 foot siding or even Saco (since preference is not to randomly spawn - not sure how much action this siding would normally get otherwise)
--Magunden Siding is what I used to use for an interchange of all those industries before they existed. It can just as easily be used for the same allowing the option.
--BK Yard could have assigned tracks though the capacity is much tighter and would restrict the yardmaster flexibility in a crunch.
-BNSF
--Bakersfield pick any track(s) as I've always found this yard has plenty of extra capacity
--Edison the 3800 foot track on the north end
--Boron 3100' track
--Edwards AFB as an alternative though weak
--Barstow in theory you could set up something for every R track (this also gives you visibility for the hump operator to see what is out there). But it could be a quick turnaround.
--If Nebo is not being used I see options here for BAR as well
-UP
--Tehachapi runaround, Summit Siding, 5320' stub at Monolith
--Fleta siding (believe this one is prototypically dropped by the hauler anyways)
--Metrolink Palmdale (looks nice but are we using it for anything else?)
--Vincent (not sure how much this is used either as another option)
--Yermo Yard??? I have no idea the only thing that comes to mind is the coal transfer with BNSF
BNSF NEEDLES SUB
- West Newberry
- West Cadiz
- Pick a storage track??
UP CAJON SUB
- Kaiser Yard (This might be dated as it's part of LA now I think)
- WC GATX Storage tracks
- WC Receiving (can be used to alleviate the hump)
- UP Old Colton Yard
BNSF CAJON SUB
- SBD All receiving yard tracks
- Ono siding
- Cargill 2049' siding
- Hesperia siding
- Thorn siding
- Victorville plenty of opportunity here
- Oro Grande ditto
- Helendale
I would get into the other subs in the LA expansion but I'm not as familiar with them as I only ran them for a short time (perhaps a project for someone else). From what I can recall there is plenty of opportunity here as well.
Remember ANY yard can be set as an industry so it doesn't have to be a specific track. This gives visibility to the switch list option as well as a safety valve. The way it works is the following and I can give you a step by step below:
1) BAR & WC receiving has the 1st valve that is set up to turn any train
2) If it passes this valve then it goes through the hump and would require building
3) Locals that work yards that don't have power can use available sidings to either 1) work or 2) exchange cars
4) Locals that work yards that have power can simply setoff and pickup in yard per normal (this is prototypical and can also have a valve in place for the area or industry switcher)
5) Locals that have a terminating or turning point yard can have it's power hold in any location that is a safety valve
Once the system is fluid the safety valves and the industries themselves will have cars. It will allow the flexibility of either switching a local in or out of session, or simply setting off from the main during a session.
I also recommend EVERY yard has an industry set off (with or without a valve). There is a reason for this an it involves procedures and admin automation. Everyone has access to the industry list and what is ready to be switched. As I've heard some of the burden is not having enough work to do. So at times you will have demand up where people are willing to switch but others when you want to have a session, and stuff needs to be switched. Some pointers, procedures, or admin guidance can then be used for this.
Anyways that is my $2.02
Hope it helps. Looking forward to see what you come up with.
Sean
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Post by mikerice on Sept 9, 2019 18:16:32 GMT -6
Sean, thanks for information here. I'll have more time to look at it in detail later, but for right now a couple of questions...
1. Valves and Safety Valves I'm not quite following what you mean, can you describe with a little more detail please?
2. Industry processing time set to 18 hours instead of 24. I had made changes for this previously, and I understand why. But if the clock is continuously running I'm thinking I might want to have industry processing times maybe be something like 6 days, with the maximum being 7 days. What do you think?
Mike
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Post by survivorsean on Sept 9, 2019 18:45:50 GMT -6
Hi Mike, no problem:
1. So I think it's a term I use that describes what you were talking about in one of the yards in LA. Any yard track or even multiple tracks if not sure where the cars go can become an industry. In the past I've used them in the humps and receiving yards just for info only. However I have been successful at having yard tracks in the SE on Sanford Sub. It's basically what I call a safety valve to prevent work that needs to be done in lots of switching holding up mainlines, yards, etc. Thus I call them safety valves for that reason. They have their countdown to give time for crews looking for extra work between sessions to be able to work industries, but will turn over if the supply of crews is not available in time.
2. Yeah 6 days works good on max of 7 days. I was thinking of the old frozen clock thing, but that works pretty good for weekly sessions.
3. Speaking of the schedule, you mentions prototypical train levels. Is the schedule going to match actual time, or run similar to a once a week train say if you were running 24 hours worth of sessions in a week? I assume you are talking an internal schedule of 24 hours that likely won't match the clock time. It would be neat if you could manage to get 24 hours in a week (or another even number like 12 or 8 lets say). Reason I say that is because it encourages familiarity among sessions as people have their favorites and know what to expect, and what might be available.
It would also be a bit strange having certain passenger rush hour trains in the middle of night or something. Freights you wouldn't notice as much.
Thanks
Sean
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Post by mikerice on Sept 9, 2019 22:12:14 GMT -6
Thanks again Sean.
#1 and #2 I'm aligned.
#3, I'll be honest I really don't know. Would I like to be able to process 1 day on the schedule in a real-time week. Absolutely! But can we, is an entirely different question. I want to move trains on the mainline and have great dispatcher sessions, but not flood yard and local operations. I don't think I mind when the passenger trains run (night/day), I prefer to have the traffic simulate based on the "cycle clock" or whatever we want to call it.
Cheers
Mike
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2019 14:04:14 GMT -6
With the spawn points in the BAR departure yard, it's possible to fill in some of the traffic that we can't really build effectively with a 15-track bowl. That capability should be used to eliminate the double/triple switching we currently do to get trains blocked up. Eliminating or streamlining the locals will help that as well.
The only trains that are tricky to auto-generate at BAR are the Victorville Turn, Boron Local, and Cadiz Turn. They always end up 4-5,000 ft, and while they can be handled, it's a bit of an immersion-buster and not terribly realistic.
WC is a bit trickier if you don't want to spawn at Cedar. In single player, I spawn all my WC outbounds at Cedar and run them into 201 at Cedar, through a runner in the departure yard, and then they just show up at Pepper a few minutes later. It blocks the control point for a minute, but it saves tons of work.
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Post by hawk777 on Sept 11, 2019 7:58:22 GMT -6
I have to say, I’d be a little sad at the loss of some locals. I totally understand why unfinished locals (especially DS-required locals) are stuffing things up, but I do find that the locals are where one finds the most variety in activities. I don’t know if Sean’s safety valve idea can be applied to all locals? If it could, that would be a great way to prevent backlogs while still providing the opportunity for every local to be run if someone wants to run it.
Here’s another idea: I’ve noticed that some DS-required locals can be hard to finish in a single session. On the other hand, when the next session comes around, if all that’s left to do for a local is take it from its work area back to a yard, that’s not a particularly interesting job. If a local is close to finished at the end of a session, rather than the DS just setting all signals red and walking away, would it be possible for the DS to leave the signals at DS-board-yellow (i.e. one train allowed to pass) from the local to its yard to let the job finish, either right then or later in the week? One could even imagine extending this logic further: if there are mainline trains in the area, the DS could leave a red signal just before the local work area to prevent more mainline trains from entering the area, a red signal some distance after the yard to prevent the mainline trains from just running away forever, but leave movement authority through enough blocks after the yard that the mainline trains will clear out that space before stopping, thus leaving a gap on the mainline between the local work area and the yard. The DS can leave the intermediate signals between those two points DS-green (i.e. unlimited trains allowed to pass), allowing the local to go through that area later (without a DS) once the mainline trains have cleared out. If the yard access points are controlled, they could either be unlocked to allow the local operator to throw them and get back into the yard (not necessary in many cases as the yard access points are already hand points), or they could be left alone and the train driven right up to the yard but not into it, and could go in (perhaps even under AI control) in the next session. If this didn’t make sense, I can probably draw a few pictures to explain.
Or maybe this isn’t helpful. I haven’t really looked at the big picture; maybe mostly-finished locals tend to get finished promptly anyway.
Another aspect might be that certain parts of a local’s work don’t require DS: for example, the SJVR local requires DS to get to and from Oil City, but not while working in Oil City. So if the local gets to Oil City during a session, it could be worked within Oil City in between sessions and left ready to head back to the yard. But that’s not obvious from looking at the registry: the registry just says “DS required: yes”, so someone might not realize that they could work the local outside a session.
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Post by mikerice on Sept 11, 2019 18:54:19 GMT -6
Hontz, regarding BAR I definitely agree. Lots of multiple handling to sort cars for the locals based out of BAR or being delivered to La Marida and LAJ. I do like the new spawn points at BAR and in single player use them to spawn the H-BARLAC1.
hawk777, I think option 1 is to work on the safety valve concept to make everything available up to a point in time. Besides that, focus on the non-DS required locals that can be run at any time or find ways to make more locals non-DS required.
Thank you to both, lots of good information here.
Mike
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Post by mikerice on Sept 12, 2019 16:35:50 GMT -6
Here's a couple of more things to consider:
1. Intermodal Yard processing (unload, re-tag for load, add power, depart). We have spawn points (2 in Hobart, 1 at UP East LA). We could just spawn the departures and eliminate the steps mentioned before. LATC is a challenge.
2. Locomotive Servicing. Anyone feel strongly about keeping this going as it has been?
Thanks,
Mike
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Post by hawk777 on Sept 12, 2019 19:36:23 GMT -6
I have mild opinions on these. For intermodal, I do sometimes enjoy hostling or building up intermodal trains in the yards. Would that be going away? Not a big loss, but a small one. I also sometimes used to connect up and do a bit of hostling to and from the fuel pads in various yards. Both of these were tasks I could work on in a short time (when I didn’t have multiple hours available, as I would need for serious yard switching or a local) and also not have to worry about not knowing how to do them (because they’re really simple). But, if they are causing trouble, I wouldn’t miss them all that much.
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Post by mattknowlton on Sept 12, 2019 20:01:52 GMT -6
I have read through most of the thread and will have to take some time to figure out my response(s). The one comment I will make is that if Run8 would simply redo the Barstow yard to be prototypical as they have proven can be done with Waycross in the South East, that would solve the multiple hump problem of sorting cars.
I will also have to assess how much time I can spend in Run8 as I am now in a serious relationship and working to build a business that would ultimately give me more time flexibility. But for now, as it will eventually be my only source of income, it must be a priority.
Matt K
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Post by mikerice on Sept 13, 2019 11:30:48 GMT -6
Matt, great to hear from you. Serious relationship and building a business, it definitely sounds like you have a couple of top priorities. Best wishes with both!
hawk777, I just though I would toss the questions out there and see what responses I get. I definitely agree moving the power around to get it serviced is really simple work, and I even find that's what I would do if I didn't have much time. Intermodal work, it's kind of cool to process the trains and build the outbounds.
Definitely undecided on these, but I can see they fit into the overall plan and provide variety.
Thank you,
Mike
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2019 14:00:21 GMT -6
There have definitely been times I've cheated the loco servicing at WC just to keep things fluid. Hostling power can be an interesting job, but it does get old if it's just moving power off the fuel racks to the ready tracks every session. I wouldn't miss that if it went away.
For intermodal, my suggestion is the same as for merchandise: just add some processing tracks where trains can be yarded and they will re-tag outbound automatically. It wouldn't have to be all of them, but enough that it keeps things flowing.
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Post by 5ash on Sept 16, 2019 18:58:37 GMT -6
I haven’t posted in a while, but I’m still looking at the forums and waiting for the return. I understand a change being necessary, but I personally don’t like it..... but again, I understand.
I don’t mind the refueling being streamlined as it can be repetitive and a bit mind numbing.
I think the safety valve idea could work. I will add that if you want the industries to “turnover” accurately the industry will need to be set up with some specific tags. I can go into detail if you have any questions.
I will also mention again... for me personally I enjoy the yard work at the big yards, but I know there are steps and procedures to follow for each yard. I worry I will make a mistake at times and cause more work for someone else or myself. I know they happen and I can always ask questions here if no one is on, but that isn’t very efficient. Maybe I just need to work in the yards more, but just my .02.
Can’t wait to run with everyone again! Thanks Mike for all the background work you and the other admin do.
5ash
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Post by survivorsean on Sept 17, 2019 10:24:44 GMT -6
Speaking of which Mike do you have an approximate time your expecting to be back up running? I've been trying to keep myself busy and manage to get out of the house Sunday evenings usually to railfan. But my Monday and Wednesday evenings are pretty boring at the moment. No pressure, just trying to get a rough idea. I'm still not 100% where I may fit in, but I'll deal with that when we are operating again.
Thanks
Sean
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Post by survivorsean on Sept 22, 2019 21:51:18 GMT -6
Anyways I know your busy with real life, and I do appreciate keeping Run8 alive. As I've posted tonight on my forum the Run8 community in general is dead. It's only the remaining servers in my opinion that are keeping Run8 alive as it's on life support. This weekend I purchased a model railroad simulator and my son and I are actively developing my Niagara region. I will also be developing RTS to go along with this as the code will likely be much less complicated since I'm not interfacing with Run8.
I look forward to whenever you have something to bring. It's very much appreciated, and until then Run8 for me and my RD remain idle waiting.
Thanks
Sean
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Post by mikerice on Sept 23, 2019 22:55:58 GMT -6
HI there, work is killing me right now. However over the weekend I tested some of the concepts we have been discussing.
I think what I've decided is the concept we had before wasn't so bad. Running a frozen clock model and manually spawning trains to a schedule "feels" right. The improvement will be with how to process locals if there isn't enough folks to cover the demand.
There was a great discussion before when I was thinking about reducing the amount of local trains, and Hontz/Sean had a great string of posts that I went back and looked at again. So I've been doing some configuration work experimenting with La Mirada and the locals based there. I've been extending the "Industry" tracks to also include the tracks in the La Mirada "west yard". So if we have cars for the industry in that yard and the local doesn't end up running, the cars will re-tag for their destinations. I've been focused on the BNSF side so far, but the same concept should work on the UP side too.
Now that I've re-deciding a few things:
1. Staying with a frozen clock model, the clock only moves when we are actively dispatching trains on the main lines.
2. Building in the configuration so cars tagged for an industry get processed in the local yard
3. Manually spawning trains based on the schedule, not randomly
I think this coming weekend I can complete the industry configuration changes, all 18 hours processing time.
The weekend of Oct 5/6 I'm in Lubbock TX to visit our college student and spend quality time with him.
The next weekend Oct 12/13 I'm thinking I'm ready to get back to operating. It may be a little rough at first, but shouldn't be too bad.
One of my big things was....what if I'm not available to start/stop the clock and spawn traffic:
1. I'm going to make all spawned trains available so members anyone can spawn a train if it's time. And also members can use the trains for their own SP operations.
2. My schedule is a little more predictable now, and I'm anxious to get things running
3. If I'm not available for some reason, we can continue with the session and I can advance the simulation clock afterwards.
Thanks for your patience everyone,
Mike
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Post by mikerice on Sept 24, 2019 0:24:32 GMT -6
Sean, glad to hear you are doing the model railroad simulator with your son. I do agree things seems a little stagnent in the Run 8 world, but I've thought that before and then pleasantly surprised with something new. Right now for me I have enough to work with, just need to get the direction settled and get it re-launched.
What I'm realistically thinking is to re-launch on Sunday afternoon/evening October 13th. I'd like to target operating sessions on Sunday and Wednesday potentially, with switching opportunities available 24x7 to keep up with mainline operations.
Thanks,
Mike
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Post by mikerice on Sept 24, 2019 0:36:52 GMT -6
Sorry, just rambling along tonight after being in the office for almost 12 hours on a Monday. I'll put together an operations document to outline all of this, but one of the changes I have been playing with is utilizing the spawn points in Barstow to generate the H-BARLAC1, H-BARSDG8 and H-BARWAT1. One of the big problems with the LA area has been generating the right traffic from the East and North, have it come into Barstow and get classified, blocked for La Mirada, LAJ, Malabar, etc. So generating the traffic from Barstow would probably be "cleaner" than generating the traffic from East Seligman and/or Fresno and doing all of that classification in Barstow.
Don't get me wrong, I love the hump/trim operations in Barstow and plan to have plenty of it. But would like to reduce/eliminate multiple iterations of hump/trim to block trains for LA area.
Mike
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Post by survivorsean on Sept 24, 2019 19:32:42 GMT -6
Just a thought pertaining to the hump I may have a suggestion I forget the track designations and symbols these days, but the example should show a potential.
You can still have 3 humps but have them overlap
Hump1 (Trains from north humping into WB 1-7 & EB 8-14)
Hump2 (Trains from west humping into NB 1-7 & EB 8-14)
Hump3 (Trains from east humping into WB 1-7 & NB 8-14)
The NB is obviously going to have less traffic so it depends on if trimming or humping is at priority. The priority above assumes trimming being higher priority. But switching between the humps only requires trimming of up to 7 or 8 tracks including the sluff.
I can't recall how the last humps were set up as it's been well over a year since I ran the hump at BAR.
Thanks
Sean
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